A girl I used to date (we'll call her "PowerLips28"), but now with whom I am just friends, recently went on a date with a male human (as far as I know) and received flowers. This was the first date she went on with the fellow. My discovery of this piquing morsel got me into a heated debate with her about the follies of giving someone flowers on a first date. Her, as well of a good friend of hers, thought was that such a gesture was sweet, and nice because it was unexpected. Apart from validating the ease with which certain women (not all) are pleased, as well as their capricious valuation of material things that serve little to no practical function, it prompted me to poll other female friends of mine to see if there was a consensus, or whether they would agree with the true and virtuous side (i.e., my side).
Two said their feelings are tentative: if it was a modest bouquet then they would be pleased, but if the suitor went overboard then they would be freaked out.
One said it would be a nice gesture, but felt the person who gave them would be clingy and easily whippable.
One said she would not be pleased because such a gesture is too cliched and formal.
Admittedly, not a lot of responses (yet), but enough to balance the field with the two lovelorn saps. An interesting note about this question, the girls who I polled gave relatively lengthy and detailed answers, and I didn't even ask for thorough justification. Just goes to show how certain women read into trivial acts.
My argument sides with the latter two girls.
Giving flowers on a first date is certainly cliched, especially if they are roses. It shows one's inexperience in the world of dating. The person who gives flowers is the person who believes in soulmates, fate, destiny, and a bevy of other stereotypical, quixotic bullshit that they've gorged from TV, film, literature, and Cosmo (societal poison), instead of from actual lived experience. As such, the person will be looking for a serious relationship, and will insist on becoming serious sooner rather than later. They also have dependency issues, and need a romantic partner to feel complete.
This misguided gesture also broadcasts to the receiver, "I don't have enough game/charm to win you over on my own merits, so I will augment my shortcomings with a trite gift that will be discarded within a week." Spending more money than is required on someone you know little about is NOT thoughtful. You shouldn't have to sacrifice your personal wealth in order to make someone like you.
The most telling part of PowerLips28's episode is that she won't be going on a second date with the fellow who gave her flowers because there was no connection. They didn't click, mesh, coagulate, fuck, anything. The flowers did nothing. Yes she thought that they were "nice", but it did not affect her perception of the guy. Mike's point is proven.
5 comments:
i don't think the fact that she didn't go on a second date proves your point at all. as i understand, your point was that flowers are cliche, make a person seem desperate, and suggest that the person is easily whippable. just because they didn't have a personal connection does not prove that this dude was desperate or easily whipped. it does not prove that he believes in fate, soul mates or anything of the sort. it doesn't prove that he was giving them to alter her perception of him. all it shows is that he was trying to give the girl something that may please her. i'm sure he was hoping for a positive effect on the way she viewed him, but nothing of the sort is 'proven' by the lack of a second date. i would think that you would be all over these 'proven' assumptions, since you're so damn technical all the time!! haha
p.s. i think you're a fantastic writer.. i just don't always agree with your opinion. :)
Mama Bear
(not your mama, of course..)
On behalf of dankoskie:
Well like you yourself stated girls are split on whether it is good or not, so that point is already moot. and I'm going to number the rest of my points just for my own ease
1. Saying it shows inexperience in the world of dating. well I for one would like to see the numbers that prove this assertion. This seems to be your opinion, which when paired with 5 dollars will buy you a beer.
2. that the person who gives flowers believes in fate destiny...etc again this is just an entirely baseless stereotype. and saying that they have dependency issues and need a romantic partner to feel complete? wtf? How about they just want to show the other person that they like them.
3. I don't believe that the reason a person gives flowers is to win "brownie points" It just shows that you are thinking of them.
Also giving flowers on a first date depends on the circumstances. Is it a blind date? Have you been friends for a while? Did you just meet? Do you know she likes flowers?
"Spending more money than is required on someone you know little about is NOT thoughtful. " It is thoughtful, because like you say it is unnecessary. It is the same as opening doors for her. It's chivalry. Just like bending down on one knee to propose or ask the father's permission first for the girl's hand in marriage. I don't think that these are just meaningless cliches they are personal decisions on how one wants to present their self to the world. I think it is a positive choice that has a certain nostalgic charm and if a guy wants to buy flower's for a girl on his first date I think it's a sweet gesture and it shouldn't be deemed a rookie mistake or he shouldn't be classified as having dependency issues or have an inferiority complex about their game.
Hey Dan, thanks for comments.
In response to one, my argument is based on the results from my polled female counterparts. By inexperienced I'm suggesting that the person who gives flowers will believe that any girl they give them to will like them, in any circumstance and with any bouquet.
In response to two, my reasoning is inductive, and perhaps not the best. BUT, I'm saying that giving a girl flowers is indicative of the "romantic ideal" fed to North American society via mass media. So, since they exhibit one trait of the romantic ideal, they are also likely to possess other traits. I realize that it won't always be the case that a person who gives flowers always possesses the other corresponding traits. I just worded it the way I did for journalistic strength.
In response to three, giving someone flowers is unnecessary. You can show a person how much you like them and how considerate you are of them just by talking to them. Giving someone flowers on a first date is also potentially INconsiderate, because the person you give them to might not actually like them.
It's also true that giving one flowers on a first date does depend on the circumstances, but in most cases it would be difficult for one to know for certain whether the receiver would appreciate them.
I agree it's chivalry, and I'm glad it's still around. It adds positivity to the world. However, the reality is that some girls, and perhaps even guys, are put off by it. Not everyone wants to be wooed; they just want to meet a person who they can establish a meaningful connection with. In the end, you are the reason someone wants to be with you, not because you buy them things (except for shallow people).
I do think chivalry is cliched, though it doesn't mean it's necessarily meaningless. Obviously it's meaningful to the chivalrous person, but the intent is not always reciprocated. This is why I think it's a rookie mistake, because being chivalrous leads one to make generalizations about their romantic encounters. Every girl is different, and you have to cater to those differences.
I would for one like to know the ages of the people that went on the date and the ages of the girls polled.
I ask this because maybe the inexperience isn't in the guy who gave flowers but in the people you polled or yourself. Obviously if you date to just date then it is meaningless and giving a girl flowers or receiving them would also be meaningless and pointless. But, if you're dating to meet that special someone and they start off by doing special things for you in the beginning - if there is a connection - then this a usually a very good start.
And, I'd like to correct you on the fact that it is the mass media that has corrupted us into thinking there are things such as fate, soulmates, or anything of the sort ... In our parents and grandparents and great grand parents era's chivalry was a large part of the "courting" process. Now a days we go out on a date, fuck anything that walks, and have no meaning, depth or soul to our relationships.
I would assume someone who brought flowers wasn't looking for a quick fuck, he was looking for a meaningful connection. Just because it wasn't there doesn't mean it didn't do something internally good for both parties.
I will say this ... there needs to be some creativity in the flowers given as simply giving roses is really bland, boring, and makes it seem like you're just going through the steps. But, if you look for something special or unique that you feel represents the girl - that is truly special. Or, if you know her favorite flower (ie. orchids, gerber daisies, lilac, etc) and chose that, it shows that you listen and care.
Some of us are weary on guys giving flowers because some do it just because they think it will increase their chances of getting laid. But, some people are truly doing it because they want the girl to feel special. And, it doesn't have to be a bouquet ... it could be a flower ... a rose, a daisy, a single flower just to show your ability to be better than the rest. Some girls have never received a flower from a guy ever and it IS and CAN be VERY special.
But, as I said ... if you're looking for a meaningless relationship, an easy fuck, or whatever ... then yes giving flowers would be meaningless because the incentive behind it is meaningless and that is an inexperienced dater.
Ciao...
Flowers are a symbol of affection, not a replacement for it as mike would like us to believe. Guys buy them to let the girl know he's interested...or sorry for something.
Girls like getting them because they see it as a sign, that he will go that little extra for her. The token could just as easily be something else, like chocolates. Is he against chocolate too, or just flowers?
Lets go one further, dinner. If the guy buys dinner, he's saying, "I want to take care of you". Which is the basis for emotions to somebody, or it could be taken as wanting to see her again so you make an "investment". Girls fall for all that stuff, flowers, chocolates, opening doors, pulling out chairs, holding hands. It's all a part of the game, but if you're too cheap to play, find something else to do with your penis.
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